AquiPor's CEO on a permeable concrete surface that absorbs and filters stormwater, why gray infrastructure falls short and how to update water systems.
About this episode
00:00
Hello, you're watching another episode of Green New Perspective, a webcast series dedicated to sustainability. My name is Dunja and today we sat down with Greg Johnson, CEO and co-founder of Aquipor Technologies. Greg and his co-founder, Kevin Kunz, created a really innovative surface technology for dealing with stormwater and flooding in a sustainable way. Their new material, permeable concrete, does what traditional surfaces can't. It absorbs water like a sponge but filters out the accompanying pollutants. It's got a low carbon footprint unlike traditional cement, and provides a sustainable means to dealing with our need to collect and contain water. Greg and Kevin's surface technology is still in the proof of concept stage, but is generating a ton of buzz in the industry. So, with its focus on sustainability and innovation, Aquipor is definitely a company to watch and we think it's got a game-changing solution. So tune in to learn more about Greg and Kevin and what's in store for Aquipor.
01:18
Well, thank you for joining the GNP Launchpad podcast. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I just have to say I haven't found you through your company, through Aquipor. I found you through your podcast, Water Voice. So I want to recommend the podcast to our listeners as well because I really think it's great to have just listened to your episode 18. I think today I listened to it. I think it's called "The Philosophical Approach to Solving Big Environmental Issues". Great episode, great episode. Thank you. I appreciate that. We got into podcasting as sort of just a side way to, we always have these conversations amongst ourselves. And we thought, you know, this would be a good way just to be able to record them and go back and kind of reference different things and topics that we've been thinking about. And so it's been good. But that episode was fun because Michael Christian, who I interviewed, is just a super smart high-level thinker. So that was a fun one.
02:32
Yeah, I have to say your podcast is, I'm not an expert on water issues, obviously. And I really love the way you're explaining those issues. Like it's down to earth. Everyone can understand what you're talking about. It's not an easy thing to do when you talk about complex issues and environmental issues. So forever for that. I mean, you and your co-host are great. Thank you. Yeah, so let's talk about you and Aquipor. So can you tell me about your background and how you became interested in addressing the issue of wastewater failures? Sure.
03:08
My background, if you were looking from the outside looking in, which you probably are in most people would, it doesn't make a lot of sense that I'm in this, on this path or in this line of work because my background really was just, I went to school and I got a degree in just general business. And when I got out of school, I was involved in sales. I mean, I was like a corporate salesperson for a few years. And then I got into real estate. So I was helping on the commercial development end of real estate. And that's where I saw this big issue around stormwater. And what it was like for real estate developers, at least in our region, we're here in Washington state in the US. And they're pretty strict stormwater requirements in our state. And so commercial real estate developers always have to, if they're going to develop a new property, they have to have some stormwater management facility or some solution to manage whatever stormwater falls on their property. And the solutions at the time were pretty expensive and they took up a lot of space. And so that is when it kind of dawned on me that there needs to be better solutions for managing stormwater where it falls. And at the same time, my co-founder Kevin was at Washington State University and he was in an environmental science class and they were talking about green infrastructure and stuff. Long story short, he was in class with a friend of his who actually was in the US from China. And his family or it was like a second cousin or something had a factory where they're making these precious tiles, like paving tiles. And Kevin was like, "Well, send a sample over." And they did. And Kevin came and brought it to me and I was blown away. I'm like, "There's a market for this right now. So let's start a business." We were super like, "We didn't know what we were doing." Very naive and ambitious. So that started the first company but since then what we've realized is the issues way beyond stormwater management. Like now it's like an urban flooding issue. It's an aquifer depletion issue where we're tapping aquifers and groundwater to a level that's completely unsustainable. So anyway, that's where it started and here we are today trying to solve the stormwater issue of course, but much bigger I think water infrastructure type issues. So you just felt like you saw the problems but what the problems are exactly and how does your solution contribute to the, let's say, climate change issues on water resources? How does it impact in a good way?
04:31
I think there's a couple ways that it can do that. So right now and you're probably well aware of this, there's a lot of money, whether it's private money or even government money, that's going into what I call climate mitigation. And so it's this whole approach to get CO2 emissions down and to mitigate the amount of CO2 that's going off in the atmosphere. Well, we're all aware of carbon television. It's like a popular term at the moment, yeah? Yeah, you're right on. And so, and that's great, we need to mitigate CO2 emissions, but what we've not invested as much in is climate adaptation. And so what Aquipor does with our technology is we can help cities and communities adapt to a changing climate because we're going to blow past the 1.5-degree Celsius threshold that basically puts us in dire straits for lack of a better term. We're going to blow past that. And so what that means is cities and regions are going to get more extreme weather, more commonly. What our solution does is it's a permeable concrete that can take the place of sidewalks and streets and parking lots. So when we get all this rain, it's going to get that water back into the ground naturally. And so our thought is, we should replace as much impervious surface area in cities as we can to make cities more sponge-like, if you will, and get that water back into the ground.
06:20
The other aspect of our technology is it's an extremely low CO2 technology. So as opposed to normal concrete, which is very pollutive, cement goes into normal concrete, cement's responsible for like 8% of global CO2 emissions. So third largest, if it were a country, it'd be the third largest emitter in the world. And so we don't use any Portland cement in our mix. It's inherently low carbon, inherently green.
07:00
But what other steps do you think that needs to be taken to modernize water infrastructure in America and to make it more resilient? Well, I think I'd like to see our cities become more permeable. So use more permeable like material and use more green space would help. But on a larger scale, what's very interesting is we have in most cities, we've built great infrastructure. So when I say grand infrastructure, that's water infrastructure that you can't see. So it's everything like under the street, the pipes, the tanks, storm drains, like everything when it rains that takes this water somewhere to be treated. Well, the problem is, and people might not be aware of this, is those systems are built on data. It's called Atlas 14 data. And it's like the average of precipitation that cities or regions get over time. Well, this data in some cases, like in the Pacific Northwest where we're at, they're basing it off of data from like 1970 something. And so we're getting these huge rain events and they're like, well, our grand infrastructure systems are being overwhelmed. And it's because you're basing your numbers and how you're designing infrastructure on decades-old data. So that's one thing that can be improved. The second thing I think is obviously looking at other solutions to getting water back into the ground where it falls. So I go back to permeable pavement, rain gardens, and more green space. And then on a very, you know, much larger scale, I think like LA County, Los Angeles County has done some things where they have these big spreading grounds where they basically divert stormwater to these huge earthen bowls that then get that water back into aquifers. So I think more of that type of approach, I think, could help. So it's not one thing. I think it's multiple things that we need to do in the United States to bring our infrastructure up to date.
So you need new numbers and better solutions. And what happened with the infrastructure you made? Have you implemented it somewhere? Have you seen some improvements within the communities?
08:10
Yeah, well, for us, we're still kind of in the proof of concept stage. So we've been in research and development for almost six years now. And it's been really tedious. It's been deep science to get this technology right. So we're at the proof of concept stage. We have a lot of interest right now from cities and communities in the western US. And what we've noticed is really interesting is these cities in Nevada, Arizona, California, don't get much rain. But when they do get rain because they've been going through drought, it's so critical that they're able to get that water back into the ground or be able to reuse it. And so just that amount of interest gives me hope because I think now communities and elected officials, people that are making these decisions are starting to see that this is a big problem. And they're going to have some money now to be able to solve these issues from the big infrastructure bill. And so we're hopeful. We're very hopeful.
09:10
I wanted to ask you, like, I didn't know that you started as a realtor. How does someone who's actually doing, yeah, working in real estate, educate themselves on water problems? You're doing some really important things, innovative things. How is that happening?
09:30
It's a weird long story, but I just got interested in it. I've always been interested in environmental type issues and being able to be a good custodian of the environment. So right off the top of my head, I mean, that was the first thing. And then the second thing being in real estate, I just saw this pain point. There was this constant pain point and it made me start to think, well, there's got to be a better solution out there than some of the stuff that, you know, developers were implementing. And so I started researching it. I was just curious. And that's how I started to, you know, learn more about permeable pavement. The permeable pavement has been around for a long time. But I also noticed that like those solutions, they're decades old, they're not very good. So like the old permeable paving technology just relies on, it's like porous asphalt has huge voids in the surface. And so those get clogged up very quickly with all the dirt and debris and everything that would be in a parking lot or on a street. And so I just realized that this is not a very good solution. And just curiosity got me deeper and deeper into it. And also realized that I didn't want to be in real estate. I didn't want to be in the corporate world. I've always had an entrepreneurial bug. So I just took a leap of faith with my co-founder Kevin. And I was like 12 years ago. And then when we started Aquipor, it's an even longer story, but I'll make it real short. So we were importing the product from overseas. And we're like, well, this isn't a very good business model. We need to have our own technology so we can make material in the US. Or if we're going to set up in Europe, we could make material in Europe, but we own the technology. And so we kind of got lucky. We met a material scientist who was working on cement technology here in Spokane and we just came together. It didn't happen that quick, but basically was like, hey, man, we have a market for this. Let's start Aquipor and we did. And here we are.
Yeah, well, can you talk about the role that technology can play in addressing the issue because while you're doing that now? I think technology has an outsized role to play. We have to have better technologies to solve these issues. And here's the beauty is they're out there. They're out there. So I think I can't remember who said it, but I'd like to quote that the biggest challenges we face as a culture, as a society, as a world can be solved with the right combination of people, technology, and capital. And so I think that we have brilliant people out there. And we have the capital to want to solve these issues. Now the next step is we have to have this collective want or this will to solve these big issues. And that's the next step. But I would say technology plays a huge role. And I just have to believe that there's already technologies being developed that can solve it. Now we just have to want to do it. And when I say we, it's like elected officials. It's like the people that make these decisions from the highest level, they give it pretty good lip service. And I think in the United States, other cities are much more progressive this way than others. But there's this sort of path dependency that I think in America, we've gotten too caught up on, where it's like we don't take risks the way that we used to. And I think we need to get back to that. We need to think much more boldly about the future. But how would you like Acroport to support the modernization of the water infrastructure in America? Well, how is it and to support its resilience? I would like to see us have a seat at the table to be able to help solve the issues. I don't think we can solve it. Like our solution isn't the silver bullet to do it. But I think anywhere. Nothing is, I mean, by itself, yeah. Nothing is. But I will say this, here's an example in Los Angeles County, they have 9,000 miles of sidewalk that needs to be replaced. And they've been talking about billions of dollars, we need all this money to replace sidewalks just to make them more up to date. Here's my thought, and by the way, our technology can't be done. We need to go everywhere. It needs to be engineered. And it needs to be engineered based on soil, hydrology, and some other factors. But my thing is, like, if you're going to replace 9,000 miles of sidewalks, why not make them permeable to solve two issues at once? Three issues at once. You're going to get water back into the ground naturally. It's going to be a low carbon alternative to normal concrete. And the third piece is you're going to improve your sidewalk. This is going to be a newer sidewalk. So, I don't think I directly answered your question, but I'd like us to have a seat at the table when they're talking about replacing any physical, hard, surface area in cities. Why not make it with permeable, Aquiport material?
17:00
And what are the biggest challenges that you see with the implementation? Well, I think being new, a new technology is really hard. I go back to what I talked about a minute ago, cities are pretty path-dependent. They're going to go with the things that they know and the contractors that they know. And so overcoming that, I think, is a challenge. We're getting to the point now. And this is why we've been so deep into R&D is getting this concrete, our material, to the point where it's really cost competitive with normal concrete, which in the end is almost unfair because it's like, we feel like our solution solves two issues at once again, whereas normal concrete is just paved surface. But that's the way people think they're like, well, we don't want to pay two times the cost for something. And it's like, okay, we'll drive our costs down and we have to get it to that point, which we're very close to. So I think those two main issues and then just again, getting people and decision-makers to have the collective will and the want, to want to solve these huge issues and saying, yeah, let's go for it. Let's think bold about the next five, 10, 15 years.
18:02
And are you optimistic about that? How do you see the future of water evolving in the next decade? I'm super optimistic about it. And you know why? Because I talk to them, there's two sides to it. I talk to people at the city level and engineers and that can be at times like, oh, you want to just beat your head against the wall or beat their head against the wall. Like, wake up. But on the other hand, I
talk to, weekly, young, bold entrepreneurs working in the water space, working in other spaces, robotics, aerospace, critical minerals. And there's this movement right now of super optimistic, very bright young people working on things that will solve some of these grand challenges. And that keeps me very optimistic, not just optimistic, like excited. Because I think we have this young generation, we have the collective will and the brains. So I want to, you know, solve these issues.
18:35
So you think they're going to be able to overcome the system, the political system? Yeah. Yeah. It's good to try. It's all good to try. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, maybe not, but there's ways to work with the political system too. And yeah, yeah, I do. I do. I think, I don't know. I'm an optimist. I'm a rational optimist, but I'm, yeah, I think so.
19:21
Well, can you share some, some personal challenges that you faced, maybe for those future generations and young people who are going to listen to this podcast? Yeah, it's hard. When you're starting something new, it's obviously hard. And what happens is you come out of the gates with your idea and it's super exciting. And you're like, I'm an entrepreneur now. And, you know, the first year is just very like your high energy. But the thing is, it's a long road. It's a trek. And so you have to be able to have grit. And grit is like you know what you want and you know the issue that you're going to solve. And so you're going to get knocked down every week, almost every day. So there's not a day that goes by where it's not a new challenge or a new obstacle. And I think it's a mindset thing. So if you can just shift your mindset to saying, it's another obstacle. I'm going to figure out how to work through this issue. And then you move on to the next step. And so it's having just that perseverance. Never lose faith if you believe in something deeply enough. You know, you, again, you're going to get knocked down. Never lose faith. And I would say just surround yourself with people that keep you uplifted and read the right stuff. I'd stay away from too much social media and news and doom and gloom and all that. It doesn't help. So I don't know. I think it's just a mindset. You know, if you believe in something deeply enough, then you can find a way.
20:23
Yeah, I have to say. I totally agree with you, especially with surrounding yourself with people who are optimistic and who are already in the industry. That's why we started this podcast, you know, to make a community of like-minded people. So that we don't lose optimism because it's really easy actually. It is. It is. Yeah, it's always easy to give up. Yeah, I know. But I think today it's like there's so much going on in the world that it just seems so negative. And so that can suck the energy out of you and you have to stay away from that. It's fine to be informed about what's going on in the world, but you don't want to consume yourself with that crap.
21:07
Yeah, I know, but it's a thin balance. You know, you have to stay connected, but then you have to pick your connections. So yeah, it's not that easy, especially if you're new. Yeah, that's so well said. You have to stay connected, but you have to pick your connections.
21:30
So yeah, in the end, like, how do you think that individuals and communities should get involved? And how can we all together shape a better tomorrow? You know, I think it's just- it can be very small things. I think if you live in a city, you know, little measures of conservation, just being conscientious about it. Here's an example in- I live in Spokane, Washington, and we sit atop, I think, one of the most pristine aquifers in America. Like we have this fresh water abundance that is such a blessing, but we take it for granted. People here take it for granted. And I think if people- I bring it back to Spokane, if you just think like you don't need to keep the water on the whole time you're brushing your teeth for two and a half minutes or whatever, little things like that. I think- and I know this sounds so trivial, but, you know, I walk around in my neighborhood, I'm walking my dog. There's trash everywhere, you know, or little trash on the trail, just picking that stuff up. And it changes your mindset, because now you're like, you know what, I'm doing my part, my little small part. But I think then you get to the bigger level and being able to, if you vote, okay, voting's important. You have constituents, you're a constituent in your city or in your town, city council. You'll have their ear or you should and you should be vocal about certain things that you think, you know, need to be implemented in terms of environmental stewardship and stuff like that. And I think at the bigger level is thinking about, you know, the greatest way you can vote is with your wallet. And so, you know, if you're buying things that are sustainable for the most part, I think you're voting that way. I think investing in companies and movements that are sustainable is another step you can take. And then, yeah, I don't know. I think it's just being conscientious about those types of things. And I would add that you have to educate yourself because we have too much greenwashing these days. So, yeah, in order to invest, to support, to do whatever you need to know who you're supporting. Absolutely. Yeah, that's a big one.
27:10
Thank you, Greg. Do you have something else to add to this conversation?
No, I mean, I guess in closing, well, first I want to thank you for shining the light and doing everything you're doing to shine the light on people and companies that are trying to do well in the world. I would just leave by saying, you know, if anyone's interested in learning more about what we're doing, just go to Aquiport.com, we're at aquipor.com and other than that, I just really appreciate you having me on. No, thank you. We're going to leave all the links below in the description. Don't worry. We're going to tag you everywhere. You're pretty active on social media. You are, you and your co-host have followed you everywhere. So, your content is actually really good. Thank you guys. Thank you guys. Start up co-founders and influencers. Like, hold on. Not influencers. I prefer thought leaders. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, influencers in the space. Yeah, that's right. Thanks again, Greg. I wish you all the best in your Aquipor way. I wish you a better future. You're already started. Yeah, so thank you again. Thank you very much and keep up the good work. Bye. Bye, bye.
28:01
Well, that's a wrap on this episode of GNP Launchpad. We hope you got some valuable insight and inspiration out of today's episode. If you did, give us a shout out on social media and let us know your thoughts. We'd love to hear from you. And hey, if you haven't subscribed to our podcast yet, what are you waiting for? We've got some more awesome episodes coming your way featuring amazing guests from the Sustainability Space. So we'll be back with more talks, with more guests, with more episodes. So until then, keep dreaming, keep launching and keep making a positive impact on the world. Bye.
